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Thread: E4OD rebuild

  1. #161
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    Default Re: E4OD rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by cmoses View Post
    Traveler:
    No not the hollow ones, I am referring the 3 ~10mm bolts that are in center support itself. These bolts are visible in the photo you have where you remove the center support.
    As I was disassembling the tranny I ASSUMED they were bolted to something behind the center support....but no, I think they just hold the steel snout that pokes out the backside of the Center support, so now I just want to put them back in...but no torque specs, no one seems to mention them, not ATSG, not ford, they are like the Watergate Tapes. I did find a cutaway that shows them in a ball bearing type support in the Update handbook. I put arrows pointing to them.
    \Attachment 15342
    The 3 small center support hub bolts need "Removable Lock-Tite" applied to their threads and torqued to:

    Center Support Hub Bolts (3): 80 - 120 in lb (7-10 ft lb)

    If you reuse the 3 Feed bolts in the case webbing (2) are for the center support / (1) is for the Overdrive/Intermediate Drum assembly, they also need "Removable Lock-Tite".

    There is a gasket between the Center Support and this hub snout so pressure reaches the Intermediate & forward drums (lubrication) & clutches (applied).
    Last edited by E4OD.com; 02-13-2015 at 11:43 PM. Reason: changed to word "webbing"

  2. #162
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    Default Re: E4OD rebuild

    Thanks, out of curiosity where did you find specs on the "watergate bolts"?
    I got new feed bolts in my "master kit". I am hoping to get this together, bolted to the motor and put back in the truck next weekend. I am hoping not to have to post some tearful sob story like "it dont go into x gear.
    thanks again
    cmoses

  3. #163
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    Default Re: E4OD rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by cmoses View Post
    Thanks, out of curiosity where did you find specs on the "watergate bolts"?
    I got new feed bolts in my "master kit". I am hoping to get this together, bolted to the motor and put back in the truck next weekend. I am hoping not to have to post some tearful sob story like "it dont go into x gear.
    thanks again
    cmoses
    I found most torque numbers back in 2006 but, I don't remember exactly where I found the 3 Center Support Hub torque numbers back then. I do remember having to search quite a bit for these numbers. Now (2015), I have a Ford Factory E4OD Service Technician Manual that goes up to 1994 and I verified the torque numbers that I posted are indeed correct.

  4. #164
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    Default Re: E4OD rebuild-coast clutch and center shaft assy snafu

    I think I have discovered what might be a VERY COMMON SNAFU in the assembly of the E4OD Coast clutch and center shaft assy.

    A. Make damn sure the one way clutch is truly one way....CCW when the assy is sitting on the bench with the clutch facing you. Hint: If it goes together easily...its probably wrong, when its right the springs push the rollers up the gradual slope on the inner race, this prevents it from simply dropping in, if it drops in check to see if its really one way!

    B. The chances of lining up the planets + the one way sprag + the coast clutch frictions with the ring gear are NIL, as in ZERO. You will end up with 1 friction trapped below the mating spline on the outside of the ring gear/center shaft assy. You will be able to tell this because the sun gear will be about 1/16" Below the top face of the coast clutch cyl assy when looking down into it, when its fully seated it will be about 1/16" Above that same top face, and have NO thrust play. Here is what you do to assemble it correctly...

    1. Follow all instructions here or in the ATSG manual EXCEPT do not install the coast clutch steels, frictions, and snap ring into the cyl assy at this time (although you may assemble them to check clearances..but take em back apart!)
    2. Mate the coast clutch cyl assy to the ring gear/center shaft assy without these parts, it will be easy because you only have to mate up sun/planet, and sprag inner race splines.
    3. With coast clutch cyl assy sitting "face down" on bench with center shaft assy resting in it, install the steels, frictions, backing plate and snap ring, this will also be easy because you can align the friction splines the the ring gear/center shaft splines as you install them.
    4. Hold the assy together and insert it as one larger assy into the tranny.
    5. After installing front pump, and merely snugging the bolts, make sure input shaft will turn, if you have a trapped friction it will lock as you snug the pump..dont tighten the pump until you check this!!!!

    Leave the frictions and steels off for now!
    Name:  CoastClutch.JPG
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    Mate to Coast clutch...then install steels, frictions, and snap ring
    Name:  CenterShaftAssy.JPG
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Size:  33.7 KB

  5. #165
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    Default Re: E4OD rebuild

    Good information on installing Coast Clutch & Center Shaft as an assembly.

    A safe check to verify if you have the correct stack height & parts are indeed seated correctly is to get a depth measurement from the pump gasket face area on the case to the coast clutch drum. Before & then after rebuild.

    This measurement can then be compared to the measurement between the pump face (that mates to the pump gasket) and the the Thrust Washer on the pump stator.

    Subtracting the difference between these two measurements will give you the end play clearance from pump to center shaft. Also, the pump gasket thickness must be included in the measure to provide an accurate end play measurement.

    I take the end play measurements prior to using assembly grease on pump thrust washer so its a more accurate number.

    All these measurements need to be taken with the case in a vertical position so the Coast Clutch / Center shaft assembly is firmly seated against the Center Support.

  6. #166
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    Default Re: E4OD rebuild

    E4OD:
    Thanks, I forgot to take a measurement off of the machined surface in the case that the pump snugs against. If I had I would have been able to see the ~.125" difference, and (now) I know that is too much of a difference. Probably .010-.020" difference to allow for the new thrust washers would be more in the ball-park. Because it is so easy to overlook I think this is probably a very common snafu, I'm not sure what the symptom would be, upon cranking the sudden spin might allow the pinched coast clutch friction to line up with the outer spline on the center shaft assy and seat harmlessly....or just tear it up (way more likely).
    Previous to assembling this, I had to track down a trust washer (7G400 in the Overdrive Ring/Center shaft assy), the original plastic one had a broke-off tab (only two tabs on that bearing), and I wonder if perhaps there wasn't some "original sin" in that assembly, because that thrust washer would have very large torque moments on it if that assy were "pinched", and break that tab. The replacement is metal. Also this model doesnt have the covers for the one way clutch assy as shown in ATSG manual, but the 1 way clutch assy was in real good shape with no evidence of wear or damage (maybe because it didnt work :-))
    I dont understand what it is exactly that the coast clutch assembly does, the name implies that it clutches (or de-clutches) to enable the one-way sprag to operate...which I guess allow coasting without drag when in the overdrive gear.
    Sure is more complex than the C4's, C6's, and TH400's I have worked on.
    cmoses

  7. #167
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    Default Re: E4OD rebuild

    oh one other thing....handling this tranny is a real pain, it would have been worth the rental price IF I could have found that "rotunda" tranny stand they so proudly show in the ATSG manual. I would highly recommend building some kind of "rotisserie" adapter for an engine stand to man handle this thing, if you are doing more than 1, and you are not big and green (like hulk).
    cmoses

  8. #168
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    Default Re: E4OD rebuild

    INTERMEDIATE CLUTCH question:

    I have a 95 and a 96 in front of me... The intermediate clutch housing out of the 95 had REALLY burned up steels in it. Not melted, but heated to the point where the steel turned black and rainbow colors. The frictions were all dark brown/black. The 96 looks tons better... The 95 however, has the c-spring groove cut into it way up near the top of the drum (housing?), which would allow for more friction / steels, wheres the 96 has the groove cut lower down on the body. Seems back-as*wards to me... Any experience w/ these guys? Anybody know which one I should use? My Alto friction pack I just bought, along w/ the Kolene (whatever!) steels documentation is wrong... it claims it sent me 8 (eight) kolene steels at some thickness X, (I believe the docs state they are 1.5mm thick) but the ones they sent weren't anywhere close to that, more like 0.7mm. The docs state I'm supposed to stack 7 frictions + steels in the same place where I had 4 frictions and steels with the old design, but I have to use their newer, thinner, apply plate and their c-spring ring... I could fit these 7 frictions into the hub w/ the notch that is cut closer to the top, but I certainly couldn't do that with the hub that has the notches lower down...

    Hm.

  9. #169
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    Default Re: E4OD rebuild

    The replacements are thinner so you can put more in and they are better quality, I get all of that.
    It would be awesome to stack as many as you can in there so I would lean towards the old hub and the upper snap ring groove. There is really nothing wrong with it as long as you have enough parts to get the clearances correct.

    now, what are you doing with the trans? Do you really need to do that? The transmission in stock form is pretty solid. Whenever you make modifications or improvements you risk making it worse than better, more to go wrong.

  10. #170
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    Default Re: E4OD rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by BroncoBilt View Post
    INTERMEDIATE CLUTCH question:

    I have a 95 and a 96 in front of me... The intermediate clutch housing out of the 95 had REALLY burned up steels in it. Not melted, but heated to the point where the steel turned black and rainbow colors. The frictions were all dark brown/black. The 96 looks tons better... The 95 however, has the c-spring groove cut into it way up near the top of the drum (housing?), which would allow for more friction / steels, wheres the 96 has the groove cut lower down on the body. Seems back-as*wards to me... Any experience w/ these guys? Anybody know which one I should use? My Alto friction pack I just bought, along w/ the Kolene (whatever!) steels documentation is wrong... it claims it sent me 8 (eight) kolene steels at some thickness X, (I believe the docs state they are 1.5mm thick) but the ones they sent weren't anywhere close to that, more like 0.7mm. The docs state I'm supposed to stack 7 frictions + steels in the same place where I had 4 frictions and steels with the old design, but I have to use their newer, thinner, apply plate and their c-spring ring... I could fit these 7 frictions into the hub w/ the notch that is cut closer to the top, but I certainly couldn't do that with the hub that has the notches lower down...

    Hm.
    The drum you are speaking of is often referred to as the Intermediate Drum but, its actually the direct clutch drum. I would go with 7 clutches in the old drum with proper stack and clearance of 0.45" - 0.060" as measured between top pressure plate snap ring.

  11. #171
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    Default Re: E4OD rebuild

    I have a different take on this. If you look back at pages 7 and 8 of this thread you can see an example of the same kind of conundrum. In my case my decision was made for me because my old forward clutch drum had scarring on the outer splines, which was why I ordered the new one, which had the c-ring higher on the assembly and took an additional friction and steel. Had I had both all along I would have taken the best looking drum, if both were equal I would have taken the one with more frictions and steels.
    My observation was that the machining was much better on the one that took more frictions, leading me to believe that it was actually an earlier year part (before the bean counters said "remove that extra friction and steel, and speed up the feed on the lathe"). Look at your drums carefully and choose the best drum if you have the frictions and steels to do either one. Else go with the one you can obtain the clutch-pack clearance on.

  12. #172
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    Default Re: E4OD rebuild

    Hello Trav and E4OD, I'm back on the tranny after traveling for 3 weeks, and I have a question, I think I know the answer.
    The main control valve body has a separator plate and a lower body that bolts onto it. No mention is made in the ATSG manual, or the Update manual about gaskets, and I don't see evidence of gaskets on either side of this separator plate, my "master kit" has no such gaskets.
    Can this be true....no gaskets?
    The ATSG manual doesn't show dis assembly of the lower from the main, in fact on page 37 the figure says "don't remove these two bolts", being an engineer I didn't think I had to read that part
    So...gaskets or not?
    cmoses

  13. #173
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    Default Re: E4OD rebuild

    No Gaskets are used between small lower separator plate and the two valve bodies.

  14. #174
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    Default Re: E4OD rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by cmoses View Post
    I have a different take on this. If you look back at pages 7 and 8 of this thread you can see an example of the same kind of conundrum. In my case my decision was made for me because my old forward clutch drum had scarring on the outer splines, which was why I ordered the new one, which had the c-ring higher on the assembly and took an additional friction and steel. Had I had both all along I would have taken the best looking drum, if both were equal I would have taken the one with more frictions and steels.
    My observation was that the machining was much better on the one that took more frictions, leading me to believe that it was actually an earlier year part (before the bean counters said "remove that extra friction and steel, and speed up the feed on the lathe"). Look at your drums carefully and choose the best drum if you have the frictions and steels to do either one. Else go with the one you can obtain the clutch-pack clearance on.
    When you say you order a new one. Was this a new "used one" or a brand new one from Ford. If its a new Ford Part, it could be a 4R100 forward drum and that's why the snap ring groove is higher and can fit more clutches.

  15. #175
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    Default Re: E4OD rebuild

    1. Thanks for answering the lower to upper body gasket question. That's what I thought, the tranny is back together completely, and ready to bolt to the engine (which is also rebuilt).

    2. I think the drum was new, but I got it from one of the internet tranny parts vendors. I was actually under the impression the drum was from an earlier model because the machinist's workmanship was better :-), and we all know that the more modern a gizmo is the worse its made. But it could have been a 4R100 drum, I didn't ask and they didn't tell.

    Oh one other thing....I found a really good and reasonably priced source for those Wilde Lock Ring pliers, Harry Epstein Company. Those are some damn fine lock ring pliers!

    cmoses

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    Default Re: E4OD rebuild

    Well got it all in and cranked, not without issues mind you. The tranny shifted smoothly thru reverse, and the first two gears (havent run it far enough or fast enough for 3 and 4).
    I did discover another Ford "better idea" that came to the front during this engine/tranny rebuild, see the thread titled
    "300 CID (4.9L) Distributor to oil pump drive shaft, oil pump drive issues",
    I think this is also a very common but unanswered problem with these motors.
    Tomorrow or next day I should be posting whether or not this thing shifts through all 4 gears and OD smoothly.
    cmoses

  17. #177
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    Default Re: E4OD rebuild

    Well finally got back to the project truck, and took it for a spin. The tranny shifts absolutely flawless, all gears are operational. The truck was re-fitted some years ago with a steering column that DOES NOT have the OD on/off button on the selector stem, so OD is enabled, and it appears to work flawlessly too. I will have to rig a button and LED so we can select OD on or off for trailer pulling.
    I cannot thank E4OD, and Traveler enough for starting and continuing this thread, and enlightening morons such as myself. Cheers guys! If you come down my way post here first (I get an email) and I will have a cold Guinness, or a flock of them for you.
    cmoses

    BTW: The 4.9L I6 engine also runs real good, but there is a knock...I think its cam-gear related (its the only thing I haven't double checked). When I find that I will post it on another thread, because I notice that this is a common un-resolved complaint on this engine. cm

  18. #178
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    Default Re: E4OD rebuild

    Awesome news, glad you got it wrapped up.

  19. #179
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    Default Re: E4OD rebuild

    Hi I have an e4od that I just had rebuilt an I put it back in the truck. I have reverse 1 an second gear an it get goes into third for a hot second an quickly downshifts to second an I know this cause I can see it on the scan tool also no codes. I've replac everything else under the sun from nss vss etc everything is in spec with the scan tool but it just won't stay I third gear an then go to overdrive. Just trying to make sure it's not something Simple or something I overlooked. This tranny is out of my f super duty wrecker an it will cost a fortune to have it towed to the shop so I really hope I can fix thanks :BangHead

  20. #180
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    Default Re: E4OD rebuild

    Was the solenoid pack replaced?

    Just a guess because I have never heard of that. Next I would quest the ecm. Otherwise I would assume a cut seal.

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